sábado, 10 de septiembre de 2016

Caballería helenística

I´m sorry for my late reply, my PC is crashed. I also done some more little research/reading. Now I have a day off in work, so I finally find the time for this post.

First I don´t understand why Lonchophoroi Hippeis are armed with heavy javelins instead of xyston when they are Hellenistic medium close combat cavalry and they don´t have skirmish ability (I know Xenophon and his advises about cavalry equipment). During the Macedonian conquest of Persian empire in close cavalry combat the xyston was proved more efficient than heavy javelins which were used by the Persian cavalry. Before the battle of Gaugamela even the Persian heavy cavalry was equiped with copy of xyston to face the Macedonian heavy cavalry. It´s against the military logic to change superior weapon of Macedonian origin by Hellenistic powers proud of their Macedonian heritage to heavy javelins.

Here are just few quotations from the books I have:

„The cavalry spear in general use throughout the late Classical and Hellenistic periods was called the xyston, or 'whittled' spear. Its length is not given in the ancient sources, and we do not know if this varied over time. A whole class of cavalry, the xystophoroi or 'lancers', came into being during the Hellenistic period, named after their principal weapon. It is generally thought that Hellenistic cavalry began to use shields only after the Galatian invasions of Greece, which began in 279 BC. These were wooden, sometimes coverd in hide or felt, circular in shape, and large – over a metre (39–40in) in diameter, covering the rider from neck to thigh. They were of two main varieties. The first was reinforced in the centre by a large, circular, bronze boss (umbo). The second was reinforced with a smaller 'barleyvorn'-shaped umbo set on spina (reinforcing rib) across the front. The latter type only seems to have become popular in the 2nd century BC.“ (Macedonian Armies after Alexander 323 – 168 BC, Nicholas Sekunda, 2012, p. 9)

„For the study of the equipment and the subdivision of the Seleucid regular and Guard cavalry, information must be sought for the most part in sources outside those concerned with the Seleucid kingdom. The 'regular' horseman from Alexander on wore breastplates and carried a xyston, to which Diadochs added the shield. Antiochus' right wing in his battle against Molon included xystophoroi cavalry (Polyb. 5.53.2), and Flamininus in his address to the Achaeans described the Seleucid cavalry as 'lonchophoroi and xystophoroi' (Plut. Flam. 17.5). From the battle of Panion onwards, Seleucid regular cavalry seem to have been fully armoured (Polyb. 16.17.6, 30.25.6, Livy 37.40.6, 11)“ (in The Seleucid army, B. Bar-Kochva, 1976, p. 74)

https://books.google.es/books?id=z0sHAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=necropolis+of+Shiabty&source=bl&ots=esZFcMIUDo&sig=s9th8CyKAQxFPDX00ioraNOXUwI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi00IqV5_rPAhWCnRoKHQOoAL8Q6AEIIDAA#v=onepage&q=necropolis%20of%20Shiabty&f=false


„The relief on the trilingual stele of the Raphia Decree represents the emblematic Figure of Ptolemy IV as a Mecedonian cavalryman with a spear (see Figure 4.3). Earlier non-royal represantation of cavalry of the guard have also been preserved, generally in a funerary context, for example the funeral stele of a Macedonian officer from the late fourth century BC in Alexandria (necropolis of Shiabty) with chiton, cuirass, cloak and a long Macedonian spear, but no helmet (see Figure 4.4). Asclepiodotus and other writers of Tactics refer to such cavalryman as “spear-bearing“ (doratophoroi) or “lance-bearing“ (xystophoroi). They normally wore helmets, while the propagandist representation of Ptolemy IV shows him with the Egyptian double crown. Other essential elements of the equipment were boots and a saffron cloak, probably with purple borders, like those of Alexander’s companions. That boots were closely associated with soldiers in Alexandria is clear from Theocritus’ Idyll 15, where two women on their way to the festival of Adonis in Alexandria describe with some irritation the crowd as “all army boots and uniforms.”
There was great diversity of types of cavalry in the Hellenistic period, and sources to reconstruct the equipment used in the Ptolemaic army are scarce. In the first book of his On the Erythraean Sea, Agatharcides reports that Ptolemy II equipped 100 cavalrymen hired in the Aegean with Kushitestyle quilted armor.75 Around the same time some Hellenistic cavalrymen began to use shields, although this is not attested in Egypt.“ (Army and Sociaty in Ptolemaic Egyt, Christelle Fischer-Bovet, 2014, p. 129 - 131)

Los siguientes fragmentos están sacado del libro El ejército y la sociedad en el Egipto ptolemaico, Christelle Fischer-Bovet, 2014, p. 129 - 131.

"Había gran diversidad de tipos de caballería en el período helenístico, y las fuentes para reconstruir el equipo usado en el ejército ptolemaico son escasas. En el primer libro de su "En el mar de Eritrea", Agatharcides informa de que Ptolomeo II equipó a 100 jinetes contratados en el Egeo con armadura acolchada de estilo kushita. Por las mismas fechas algunos jinetes helenísticos comenzaron a usar escudos, aunque esto no está atestiguado para Egipto."

"Sekunda reconstruyó el traje y el equipo de la caballería pesada de la guardia sobre la base de representaciones pertenecientes al Sarcófago de Alejandro, dos estelas y una pintura mural. Los jinetes usaban un manto (clámide) de color amarillo azafrán con el borde púrpura, una túnica (quitón) blanca, botas castañas, una coraza compuesta y probablemente un casco beocio, y más tarde una coraza musculada quizás hecha de bronce y el casco llamado tracio. Sus armas ofensivas y defensivas eran una lanza larga, una espada colgada de un tahalí y un escudo redondo.

„Sekunda reconstructed the dress and heavy cavalry equipment of the guard on the basis or representations on the Alexander sarcophagus, two steles and a wall paiting. They wore a saffron-yellow cloak (chlamys) with purple border, a white tunic (chiton), brown boots, a composite cuirass and probably a Boetian helmet, and later a muscle cuirass perhaps made of a bronze and a so-called Thracian helmet. Their offensive and defensive weapons were a long spear, a sword slung on a baldric and a round shield.“ (Army and Sociaty in Ptolemaic Egyt, Christelle Fischer-Bovet, 2014, p. 150)


Also here are two pictures of ancient art, which shown the Hellenistic cavalry with xyston and shield (there are also several modern illustrations):

Imagen del arte antiguo que muestra a la caballería helenística con xyston y escudo:
Denario romano de L. M. Torquatus del año 113/112 a. C. La cruz de estas monedas muestra un jinete helenísticio del siglo II a. C. El original helenístico es desconocido hoy día (en esta moneda aparece una letra griega). El jinete está usando la lanza xyston, el escudo con una spina de refuerzo, el casco helenístico tardío típico.

Roman denarius of L. M. Torquatus from 113/112 BC. The reverse of these coins depicts Hellenistic cavalryman from 2nd century BC. The Hellenistic original is unknown to this date (there is a Greek letter shown on this coin). The cavalryman is using xyston spear, shield with a reinforcing spina, typical late Hellenistic helmet (the similar helme tis shown on the famous tomb of Lyson and Kallikles).

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?247598-EB-Twitter-updates-Discussion/page115





How the Hellenistic reforms works fo cavalry? Does the reforms only adds new units?

I think that after the reforms the Lonchophoroi Hippeis should replace the Xystophoroi units as their evolution and they should be using shields and xyston spear. I also think that Hetairoi and bodyguards units should be upgraded after reforms thru Med2TW armour upgrades with shields, xyston spears and helmets popular in late Hellenistic to represent the evolution (if this is possible in Med2TW engine). I believe (based on posted posts – monuments, coins, terracottas and quotations) that the Hellenistic cavalry wasn´t the same in the whole Hellenistic period, but there was a evolution and that many units started using shields for better protection as Hellenistic armies in later period faced many enemies (Rome, various barbarian tribes, Parthians, civil wars, other Hellenistic powers) and they tried to lower their casualities.

I´m not saying this should be done in the next release, but it will be great if the EB team will debate this idea/suggestion.

Also it will be great if the Hellenistic generals and officers will be reworked in the future, they really needs some upgrade. I´m not saying this should be done in the next release

I´m sorry for this long post, I hope you will not start to dislike me

tomySVK, no need to apologise for your post being long - especially when it's well-reasoned and supported by evidence. That's exactly the sort of critique we like to have. You've hit upon an issue with Hellenistic cavalry - that there are a number of sources, for a number of kingdoms, across a span of time giving a variety of potential panoplies.

Our initial concept was something like this:

These are the standard cavalry of the mid-Hellenistic period. Armed with a hoplite-style panoply, often including greaves, but certainly a thorax of some sort, helmet, and a shield, either the aspis or the cavalry thureos, a flat round shield with thimble spina. We know they carried swords and melee spears, the latter of which may have been near kontos size, but there is also quite good evidence that they carried lonchai as well, throwing spears. They were meant to be versatile cavalry with high survivability, a reflection of the limited numbers of cavalry available to most Hellenistic powers. It is significant that they were not particularly important to the Seleucids, although they do seem to have been fielded in Asia Minor before Magnesia, perhaps as part of local armies than as part of the Seleucid army. I'd still suggest we have a Seleucid variant.
As far as our historians are concerned, there's evidence for both spears and javelins. At first we resolved upon (heavy) javelins and spears, but it later evolved into javelins and swords for greater melee capability. We've tested them in custom battles in melee, and they are beasts.

However, I must correct one misapprehension you have - Lonchophoroi Hippeis are not a replacement for the Xystophoroi. As far as cavalry go, the following substitutions happen with the later "Thorakitai Reform" around 222BC:
Hippeis are replaced by Lonchophoroi Hippeis
Hippakontistai are replaced by Thureopherontes Hippeis

At present, there isn't a reformed replacement for the Xystophoroi; but I'm now wondering whether they need a late, shielded version. There's lots of lancers available to the Hellenistic factions, but all of them are heavily-armoured and unshielded (Thessalikoi, Lydian Promachoi, Ptolemaic Kleruchoi Agema, Molosson Agema, Hetairoi). A lighter, but shielded lancer would be a different thing.



As to bodyguard cavalry, I seem to remember there's a technical hurdle - I don't think they can be upgraded. I'm not even sure you can change the unit they use after the start of the game.



https://www.deamoneta.com/auctions/search/106?c=1.+Roman+Republican

http://stevebrinkman.ancients.info/anonymous/

https://es.scribd.com/doc/29391428/Armies-of-the-Macedonian-and-Punic-Wars-359-BC-to-146-BC


https://www.google.es/search?q=%22Phil+Barker%22+Armies+of+the+Macedonian+and+Punic+Wars&client=ubuntu&hs=S7I&channel=fs&biw=1280&bih=856&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjPmsG9_7bPAhXJQBQKHSDaD4oQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=MtxZ154uM_jH3M%3A

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